The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So too, here, one looks to the results of the IDF campaign rather than the statements of politicians who have no say in the actual conduct of the war. It’s a near equivalent of quoting Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green and then pretending she represents the U.S.
Given the complexities of the urban battlefield which Hamas has spent over a decade fortifying and complicating, given its strategy to increase as best it can the number of civilian casualties and given the various explanations advanced to justify not even allowing Gaza’s women, children, elderly and infirm to seek refuge in Egypt, the IDF innovative tactics will be studied by all Western militaries - just as they have done after every previous conflict with Hamas.
The casualty numbers, without knowing how many Gazans died as a result of the 15-20% misfired Hamas/PIJ missiles, yields a combatant to civilian ratio that is better than ours in Mosul, the nearest comparator. That operation took some 9 months to complete and there was no tunnel complex to deal with nor were there hostages.
And speaking of whom, that is as clear cut a war crime and violation of humanitarian law as can be imagined, yet the world seems fine with allowing Hamas to barter for their lives. And, of course, no country is calling for Hamas’ surrender.
The focus is on Israel, what it’s doing, how it could do things better and all the rest. It’s almost as if no one expects anything from the Palestinians at all and then imagine their future state will turn out to be the exact opposite of their first attempt in Gaza.
Perhaps the only group that sees things clearly are the Sunni Arab states not beholden to Iran. They see Hamas for what it is and what it represents to the region which is why they have quietly given Israel the go ahead.
The only area in which Hamas’ strategy has worked to perfection is in the media whose misreporting has helped it immensely. If one buys the framing of the concept, I guess our prosecution of WWII against Germany was just a product of our range and vengeance, albeit misdirected as we were attacked by Japan.
But national interests being what they are, and the West not being altogether fine with the idea of Iran hegemony in the region, Israel will be allowed to complete its task while we maintain our moral purity by tut-tutting from the sidelines.
“Prortionality”. How does one treat it? To plagiarize from Douglas Murray, where do we start with October 7, 2023? Do we find the same number of Hamas or Palestinian children of the same ages that were murdered in cold blood? Etc., etc., grandmothers to Hamas terror fighters for the IDF killed? Line them all up and shoot them? A burning for a burning? A shot in the head for shot in the head? Equally if the Arab Nations in the region felt the efforts in Gaza were truly too extreme than one would think they would step up and at the very least offer some form of truce terms, enough to handle the humanitarian crisis on the ground. But, they have not, have they? No one likes this mess, where again to start? Sykes-Picot? Further demarcations post WWII? Several territorial wars hence? American neocon diplomats tell us that we need to never cede our position in the “Middle East” to “Russia” or “China”, one could ask, why not? Let their colonial ambitions have a go. Perhaps TE Lawrence’s “Seven Pillars of Wisdom” ought be required reading for anyone planning on dipping their toes into the current region known as the Middle East. History will determine if Isreal has gone too far. However, if the tea leaves mean anything, this conflict will not be concluded until isreal has satisfied itself (not the world, or Ivy League students who couldn’t find the Jordan River on a map) that they have ended the possibility of any future attacks by Hamas, as Hamas will have ceased to exists as a political and military entity. Hezbollah and other “independent” factions ought take note.
May I politely suggest you reject proportionality and all its works.
War is not a tort suit with guns.
Proportionality is fraud, lawfare, JAG chasing soldiers round after the fight. They have succeeded- in chasing us away completely.
Proportionality is simply moral attrition from behind. In the end no one fights for you… they quit.
As just happened in Afghanistan, as is happening now in the American military. JAG is welcome to pick up the slack.
It’s simply betrayal with moral smug smile. You don’t strike me as the type. Reject Judas and all his works, sir.
As for distance… the proponents of proportionality and peace at any price are always at a safe distance, with the exception of the Gaza Border Peace rave of October 7th. Ms Dannan sounds as if she’s a recent convert to reality. Luttwak is singing for his supper… and the still unlikely survival of his people. It’s still unlikely. A thousand sappers from within and many in America erode and undermine Israel- as we did Vietnam, Kabul , so many others….
Our only American interest is to stop betraying allies, to stop betraying our own, to stop betraying.
I was thinking along the same lines. What exactly does 'prortionality' mean when you're dealing with raping, torturing, hostage taking terrorists who specifically targeted civilians? I believe if Israel didn't care at all about civilian death, and wanted simply to defeat Hamas at the lowest cost, it could have done so (sending more bombs, less house to house fighting). The cost in civilian lives is the fault of the aggressor, and no State claiming to be such could leave a Hamas on its borders after Oct 7th. I don't think, given both Hamas tactics of using civilian shields and the support of Gazans, such a goal is possible without what has been happening.
Is there any precedent for waging a war on this scale, in an urban environment, under similar circumstances and attaining victory (destruction of the enemy) without the civilian costs? I can't even imagine it being possible. If the choice is between leaving Hamas in existence, or abiding by proportionality, I think the moral choice is clear cut. That the loudest voices calling for a cease fire, or 'humanitarian pause', do so without the condition that Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages is also significant, I think.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So too, here, one looks to the results of the IDF campaign rather than the statements of politicians who have no say in the actual conduct of the war. It’s a near equivalent of quoting Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green and then pretending she represents the U.S.
Given the complexities of the urban battlefield which Hamas has spent over a decade fortifying and complicating, given its strategy to increase as best it can the number of civilian casualties and given the various explanations advanced to justify not even allowing Gaza’s women, children, elderly and infirm to seek refuge in Egypt, the IDF innovative tactics will be studied by all Western militaries - just as they have done after every previous conflict with Hamas.
The casualty numbers, without knowing how many Gazans died as a result of the 15-20% misfired Hamas/PIJ missiles, yields a combatant to civilian ratio that is better than ours in Mosul, the nearest comparator. That operation took some 9 months to complete and there was no tunnel complex to deal with nor were there hostages.
And speaking of whom, that is as clear cut a war crime and violation of humanitarian law as can be imagined, yet the world seems fine with allowing Hamas to barter for their lives. And, of course, no country is calling for Hamas’ surrender.
The focus is on Israel, what it’s doing, how it could do things better and all the rest. It’s almost as if no one expects anything from the Palestinians at all and then imagine their future state will turn out to be the exact opposite of their first attempt in Gaza.
Perhaps the only group that sees things clearly are the Sunni Arab states not beholden to Iran. They see Hamas for what it is and what it represents to the region which is why they have quietly given Israel the go ahead.
The only area in which Hamas’ strategy has worked to perfection is in the media whose misreporting has helped it immensely. If one buys the framing of the concept, I guess our prosecution of WWII against Germany was just a product of our range and vengeance, albeit misdirected as we were attacked by Japan.
But national interests being what they are, and the West not being altogether fine with the idea of Iran hegemony in the region, Israel will be allowed to complete its task while we maintain our moral purity by tut-tutting from the sidelines.
“Prortionality”. How does one treat it? To plagiarize from Douglas Murray, where do we start with October 7, 2023? Do we find the same number of Hamas or Palestinian children of the same ages that were murdered in cold blood? Etc., etc., grandmothers to Hamas terror fighters for the IDF killed? Line them all up and shoot them? A burning for a burning? A shot in the head for shot in the head? Equally if the Arab Nations in the region felt the efforts in Gaza were truly too extreme than one would think they would step up and at the very least offer some form of truce terms, enough to handle the humanitarian crisis on the ground. But, they have not, have they? No one likes this mess, where again to start? Sykes-Picot? Further demarcations post WWII? Several territorial wars hence? American neocon diplomats tell us that we need to never cede our position in the “Middle East” to “Russia” or “China”, one could ask, why not? Let their colonial ambitions have a go. Perhaps TE Lawrence’s “Seven Pillars of Wisdom” ought be required reading for anyone planning on dipping their toes into the current region known as the Middle East. History will determine if Isreal has gone too far. However, if the tea leaves mean anything, this conflict will not be concluded until isreal has satisfied itself (not the world, or Ivy League students who couldn’t find the Jordan River on a map) that they have ended the possibility of any future attacks by Hamas, as Hamas will have ceased to exists as a political and military entity. Hezbollah and other “independent” factions ought take note.
Sir,
May I politely suggest you reject proportionality and all its works.
War is not a tort suit with guns.
Proportionality is fraud, lawfare, JAG chasing soldiers round after the fight. They have succeeded- in chasing us away completely.
Proportionality is simply moral attrition from behind. In the end no one fights for you… they quit.
As just happened in Afghanistan, as is happening now in the American military. JAG is welcome to pick up the slack.
It’s simply betrayal with moral smug smile. You don’t strike me as the type. Reject Judas and all his works, sir.
As for distance… the proponents of proportionality and peace at any price are always at a safe distance, with the exception of the Gaza Border Peace rave of October 7th. Ms Dannan sounds as if she’s a recent convert to reality. Luttwak is singing for his supper… and the still unlikely survival of his people. It’s still unlikely. A thousand sappers from within and many in America erode and undermine Israel- as we did Vietnam, Kabul , so many others….
Our only American interest is to stop betraying allies, to stop betraying our own, to stop betraying.
We need the practice.
I was thinking along the same lines. What exactly does 'prortionality' mean when you're dealing with raping, torturing, hostage taking terrorists who specifically targeted civilians? I believe if Israel didn't care at all about civilian death, and wanted simply to defeat Hamas at the lowest cost, it could have done so (sending more bombs, less house to house fighting). The cost in civilian lives is the fault of the aggressor, and no State claiming to be such could leave a Hamas on its borders after Oct 7th. I don't think, given both Hamas tactics of using civilian shields and the support of Gazans, such a goal is possible without what has been happening.
Is there any precedent for waging a war on this scale, in an urban environment, under similar circumstances and attaining victory (destruction of the enemy) without the civilian costs? I can't even imagine it being possible. If the choice is between leaving Hamas in existence, or abiding by proportionality, I think the moral choice is clear cut. That the loudest voices calling for a cease fire, or 'humanitarian pause', do so without the condition that Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages is also significant, I think.
It's a counter-insurgency solved the old fashioned way.